reddymjm
09-10 01:38 PM
Here is a brief calculation of EB2 Demand till date (Today's Date)
The total demand till date is ~ 120K which is
Demand up to Aug 2007 = 45K
Sep 2007 to Dec 2008 = 16 * 2.5K Perm Month = 40K
Jan 2009 to Oct 2010 = 22 * 1.5K per month = 33K
New PD porting after Aug 2007 (Current Eb3 Inventory is 60K till Aug 2007) = 10K
Total 45 + 40 + 33 + 10 = 128K. This may be inflated but it is atleast 120K.
By giving these numbers I don�t mean to scare anybody but it�s better to have a tryst with true reality rather than be ignorant. It is better to have an understanding of the backlog rather than feeling bad VB after VB, nothing will change soon because the backlog is so huge.
If you look at the numbers it is very unlikely that EB2 will literally become current any time soon, the end of the pre-adjudicated numbers is just a tipping point and when this happens anything could happen 1) Make dates current (I personally welcome that atleast everybody gets a chance to file for I485) 2) Keep accepting applications in a controlled manner so as to approve in quarter or year. 3) Grant spillover to EB3 ROW (EB3 ROW backlog is so huge like EB2 - I in the same range 100-120K that the spillover will disappear in no time, also note that EB3 ROW incremental demand is much higher than EB2 ROW).
The spillover is a happening of the present time when the economy is bad, the moment this changes everything will disappear and there will be no difference between EB2 and EB3 if you belong to a retrogressed country we will all be at 3K Per annum and EB5 contribution if any will be consumed by PD porting which will increase manifold as EB3-I folks waiting for 10 years is simply unacceptable, currently there a 60K folks here just till 2007. I strongly favor porting waiting for 10 years is unacceptable. Also being without EAD / AP is very hard, great that we have a IV campaign initiated for this the efforts in this direction are laudable. Actually as Pappu, Admin2 and others have been saying EB3-EB2 even though may be relevant now is actually meaningless this is relevant only in this temporary phase of time fighting on these lines will not help to attain any objective rather it will kill chances of EB3 friends with later PD to port. The biggest issue is the per country limits which equate talent pools like India and China and give them the same cap as countries which have 1/1000th population, if they cannot be eliminated atleast should be proportionate to population for larger countries and be at 7% for the smaller ones. PS - I have nothing personal against ROW friends.
If USCIS wants to do another JULY 2007 they never learnt their lession. With the Quarterly/annual quota I dont think USCIS legally can make EB2 current. I hate another JULY 2007 for sure.
The total demand till date is ~ 120K which is
Demand up to Aug 2007 = 45K
Sep 2007 to Dec 2008 = 16 * 2.5K Perm Month = 40K
Jan 2009 to Oct 2010 = 22 * 1.5K per month = 33K
New PD porting after Aug 2007 (Current Eb3 Inventory is 60K till Aug 2007) = 10K
Total 45 + 40 + 33 + 10 = 128K. This may be inflated but it is atleast 120K.
By giving these numbers I don�t mean to scare anybody but it�s better to have a tryst with true reality rather than be ignorant. It is better to have an understanding of the backlog rather than feeling bad VB after VB, nothing will change soon because the backlog is so huge.
If you look at the numbers it is very unlikely that EB2 will literally become current any time soon, the end of the pre-adjudicated numbers is just a tipping point and when this happens anything could happen 1) Make dates current (I personally welcome that atleast everybody gets a chance to file for I485) 2) Keep accepting applications in a controlled manner so as to approve in quarter or year. 3) Grant spillover to EB3 ROW (EB3 ROW backlog is so huge like EB2 - I in the same range 100-120K that the spillover will disappear in no time, also note that EB3 ROW incremental demand is much higher than EB2 ROW).
The spillover is a happening of the present time when the economy is bad, the moment this changes everything will disappear and there will be no difference between EB2 and EB3 if you belong to a retrogressed country we will all be at 3K Per annum and EB5 contribution if any will be consumed by PD porting which will increase manifold as EB3-I folks waiting for 10 years is simply unacceptable, currently there a 60K folks here just till 2007. I strongly favor porting waiting for 10 years is unacceptable. Also being without EAD / AP is very hard, great that we have a IV campaign initiated for this the efforts in this direction are laudable. Actually as Pappu, Admin2 and others have been saying EB3-EB2 even though may be relevant now is actually meaningless this is relevant only in this temporary phase of time fighting on these lines will not help to attain any objective rather it will kill chances of EB3 friends with later PD to port. The biggest issue is the per country limits which equate talent pools like India and China and give them the same cap as countries which have 1/1000th population, if they cannot be eliminated atleast should be proportionate to population for larger countries and be at 7% for the smaller ones. PS - I have nothing personal against ROW friends.
If USCIS wants to do another JULY 2007 they never learnt their lession. With the Quarterly/annual quota I dont think USCIS legally can make EB2 current. I hate another JULY 2007 for sure.
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mallu
04-23 08:51 PM
All,
Opened my email this morning to see the card production ordered email (time stamp in my inbox reads 2:15 am PST 4/23/08); the approval date was 4/23/08.
Been in meetings all day so not even a chance to call anyone about it.
Yay!
Good luck to all my fellow sufferers!
Googler
Keep on waiting.
Opened my email this morning to see the card production ordered email (time stamp in my inbox reads 2:15 am PST 4/23/08); the approval date was 4/23/08.
Been in meetings all day so not even a chance to call anyone about it.
Yay!
Good luck to all my fellow sufferers!
Googler
Keep on waiting.
mrane1
03-15 06:30 PM
C'mon guys, what the hell have you been doing for so long?
I mean look at the archived Visa Bulletins, you observe the following:
1. EB2 was current for India ALL THROUGH 2003
2. EB2 was current for India ALL THROUGH 2004
3. EB2 was current for India till August 2005
4. After the retrogression in 2005, EB2 India moved up quickly through 2003-2004 to April 2004 by the beginning of 2007
5. Even after the summer 2007 fiasco (EB2 Current fro July, August 2007), the priority date for EB2 India moved to April 2004 and stayed there for 3 months
What more do you wish for?
I don't understand how there any can be anyone from 2004-2005 India still left in the EB2 category.
This is pathetic. What the hell have you been waiting for?
Dude, No one has been waiting on purpose! Do you even have a clue what was going on in 2002/03/04/05... Even though numbers were current the Labor process used to take 3-4 years! If your labor is not clear then having 485 current is not going to do much... The perm process was started in 2005!Just consider yourself lucky that atleast you have an organization like IV working for you and they was instrumental in gettin atleast EAD for you and your spouse!!
I mean look at the archived Visa Bulletins, you observe the following:
1. EB2 was current for India ALL THROUGH 2003
2. EB2 was current for India ALL THROUGH 2004
3. EB2 was current for India till August 2005
4. After the retrogression in 2005, EB2 India moved up quickly through 2003-2004 to April 2004 by the beginning of 2007
5. Even after the summer 2007 fiasco (EB2 Current fro July, August 2007), the priority date for EB2 India moved to April 2004 and stayed there for 3 months
What more do you wish for?
I don't understand how there any can be anyone from 2004-2005 India still left in the EB2 category.
This is pathetic. What the hell have you been waiting for?
Dude, No one has been waiting on purpose! Do you even have a clue what was going on in 2002/03/04/05... Even though numbers were current the Labor process used to take 3-4 years! If your labor is not clear then having 485 current is not going to do much... The perm process was started in 2005!Just consider yourself lucky that atleast you have an organization like IV working for you and they was instrumental in gettin atleast EAD for you and your spouse!!
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delax
07-13 08:19 AM
This is just a stunt. WHy did she wait allthese days to write this letter. Now when everything falls in place by others efforts, she wants people to think it is because her effort all these things are happening. I hate murthy or your murfhy.
GCBy3000,
Your criticism of Murthy is noted as you are entitled to speak your mind. But let me ask you a simple question:
Did you exhort your lawyer to send a letter to Secretary Chertoff or the USCIS Director? OR
Did your lawyer send a letter on his own, exhorting the Secretary and the USCIS Director to correct this wrong?
I know the Mahatma would have asked himself the same questions before hurling allegations.
Whatever maybe the intentions of Murthy, this letter is certainly going to help not harm our case.
AND YES - For full disclosure, I am a client of Murthy and have been so for more than five years.
GCBy3000,
Your criticism of Murthy is noted as you are entitled to speak your mind. But let me ask you a simple question:
Did you exhort your lawyer to send a letter to Secretary Chertoff or the USCIS Director? OR
Did your lawyer send a letter on his own, exhorting the Secretary and the USCIS Director to correct this wrong?
I know the Mahatma would have asked himself the same questions before hurling allegations.
Whatever maybe the intentions of Murthy, this letter is certainly going to help not harm our case.
AND YES - For full disclosure, I am a client of Murthy and have been so for more than five years.
more...
pappu
04-09 03:31 PM
Visa Bulletin for May 2010 (http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_4805.html)
sanjaymm
11-17 05:00 PM
I got a confirmation that my request for information has been put on a complex track.
more...
needhelp!
11-14 01:26 PM
Couple of days back I got the receipt. I'll post the number soon.
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spulapa
08-10 01:53 PM
lets do something about it....!!
We need a lot of support from different members irrespective what category they are from.
We need a lot of support from different members irrespective what category they are from.
more...
WaldenPond
02-18 10:56 AM
retrohatao willgetgc2005 wam4wam & stirGC,
Thank You for your input. This is very helpful to highlight the name check problem. The problem description and proposed solution by retrohatao are very good. However, just allow me to share a bigger picture. There is no difference between any issue is being categorized by someone to be a sub-issue or if an issue is categorized as main issue. What is important is that the issue is being addressed ....
willgetgc2005, just so that you know, I am also stuck in name check since June-04 and my 485 is pending since Oct-03. Just like you, this issue directly affects me. No doubt this is a very important issue. As berkeleybee mentioned, this is being addressed and communicated to the lawmakers and CA team did an excellent job in making the presentation to the lawmakers.
Even though name check delay issue directly affects people like you and me, know that this is not the only important issue. The point is, many people only care about getting to the next stage of GC process. If someone's labor is stuck, that group thinks that labor certification clearance should be the top priority. If someone's 140 got rejected, then that issue should be the only issue on IV's agenda. If someone is not able to apply for 485, then that person wants to make that as the top priority. If someone is a PHD, then that person wants the top agenda should be to get GC to the guy who has PHD and the argument presented to us is - don't you get it, I am a "PHD". The other day there was a group of people including techworker_tn1, helpful_leo etc who wanted to form their own group for PHDs. And now, if someone's name check is delayed, then we say that everybody will have to go through it sometime in the later stage, so this issue should be on the fore-front of the list of issues.
I am slightly perplexed by the behavior of some members who seems to indicate that we are in some sort of race with one another. And these members seem to send out a message that says - if their issue is not listed as top priority goal then all other issues that IV is working to resolve or all the work being done by IV is worthless. I am slightly disturbed to read posts like the one from wam4wam which says that he/she hopes that bill is not passed till his/her name check is cleared.
This is a sincere request to everybody. If all that we think about is 'what's in it for me', then we cannot find commonality among ourselves. And thus no progress is possible. Know that with this thought process, nothing will happen.
IV is an organization made by people like you and me. If everybody's objective is to get to the next stage of green card process, know that we are not behaving like matured and "educated" class that we all claim to belong. Just reaching the next stage of the process is something like looking for instant gratification which actually doesn't help the cause or the complete green card process.
Most humbly, I would like to request you to post your experiences with how many people you have communicated about the efforts of IV? How many people you have convinced to join IV? What is the success rate? Were you able to persuade the people to contribute for this cause? Those things will help more than anything else. If IV is bigger and stronger, we can together address each and every issue. Ask yourself, how is it possible to continue to include more agendas and not come up with more helping hands and more resources and expect to succeed?
If you do not see a favorable post or see a post that doesn't contain something that you want to hear, please do not infer that nobody cares or as if no one is doing anything. That post may just express somebody's opinion. I must mention that everybody wants their agenda to be pushed to the top. If there is some sort of a debate from others in the forum, I see that group of people starts backing off and starts posting messages to communicate as if this forum or IV is not doing what it should; Or some people start posting messageas hoping that bill will not pass if their agenda is not addressed.....and on and on. Please let me share that this doesn't help anybody.
retrohato, Would you like to take the lead on making name check to the forefront and address it in every possible manner? IV needs sincere people like you who can spend time to do each task. We have very good ideas on how to approach this issue and find a solution to this issue. If you could please take the lead on this issue, know that name check is top priority of IV. I would request you to please call us at anytime convenient for you and express that you would like to work on this issue. We need people who are ready to take ownership of issues and are ready to deliver. Would you like to join this effort actively?
Just so that everybody know, Immigration Voice could include 'World Peace' as one of the agenda items. But just including something as Goal doesn't mean that it can be achieved. To achieve anything that is listed as goals or to meaningfully add anything to the goals we need more serious people and more resources. If you are interested to actively contribute, please call us and we will connect you to the larger group of people to team-up the work for this issue. It is ok if you are not able to participate actively. It would help if you could please encourage others to take up the responsibility. Just because people are not agreeing with you, posting negative or discouraging messages will not help anybody.
America is a great nation. That is why we want to stay here and want our GC sooner. JFK once said that 'Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country'. One of the reasons why America is Great is because of the people of this great nation delivered what JFK said. We all could learn from this and before making any claim to being part of the American fabric or before claiming to be from "educated" class, maybe we need to stop behaving in way that only sends out the message 'what's in it for me'.
Thank You for your input. This is very helpful to highlight the name check problem. The problem description and proposed solution by retrohatao are very good. However, just allow me to share a bigger picture. There is no difference between any issue is being categorized by someone to be a sub-issue or if an issue is categorized as main issue. What is important is that the issue is being addressed ....
willgetgc2005, just so that you know, I am also stuck in name check since June-04 and my 485 is pending since Oct-03. Just like you, this issue directly affects me. No doubt this is a very important issue. As berkeleybee mentioned, this is being addressed and communicated to the lawmakers and CA team did an excellent job in making the presentation to the lawmakers.
Even though name check delay issue directly affects people like you and me, know that this is not the only important issue. The point is, many people only care about getting to the next stage of GC process. If someone's labor is stuck, that group thinks that labor certification clearance should be the top priority. If someone's 140 got rejected, then that issue should be the only issue on IV's agenda. If someone is not able to apply for 485, then that person wants to make that as the top priority. If someone is a PHD, then that person wants the top agenda should be to get GC to the guy who has PHD and the argument presented to us is - don't you get it, I am a "PHD". The other day there was a group of people including techworker_tn1, helpful_leo etc who wanted to form their own group for PHDs. And now, if someone's name check is delayed, then we say that everybody will have to go through it sometime in the later stage, so this issue should be on the fore-front of the list of issues.
I am slightly perplexed by the behavior of some members who seems to indicate that we are in some sort of race with one another. And these members seem to send out a message that says - if their issue is not listed as top priority goal then all other issues that IV is working to resolve or all the work being done by IV is worthless. I am slightly disturbed to read posts like the one from wam4wam which says that he/she hopes that bill is not passed till his/her name check is cleared.
This is a sincere request to everybody. If all that we think about is 'what's in it for me', then we cannot find commonality among ourselves. And thus no progress is possible. Know that with this thought process, nothing will happen.
IV is an organization made by people like you and me. If everybody's objective is to get to the next stage of green card process, know that we are not behaving like matured and "educated" class that we all claim to belong. Just reaching the next stage of the process is something like looking for instant gratification which actually doesn't help the cause or the complete green card process.
Most humbly, I would like to request you to post your experiences with how many people you have communicated about the efforts of IV? How many people you have convinced to join IV? What is the success rate? Were you able to persuade the people to contribute for this cause? Those things will help more than anything else. If IV is bigger and stronger, we can together address each and every issue. Ask yourself, how is it possible to continue to include more agendas and not come up with more helping hands and more resources and expect to succeed?
If you do not see a favorable post or see a post that doesn't contain something that you want to hear, please do not infer that nobody cares or as if no one is doing anything. That post may just express somebody's opinion. I must mention that everybody wants their agenda to be pushed to the top. If there is some sort of a debate from others in the forum, I see that group of people starts backing off and starts posting messages to communicate as if this forum or IV is not doing what it should; Or some people start posting messageas hoping that bill will not pass if their agenda is not addressed.....and on and on. Please let me share that this doesn't help anybody.
retrohato, Would you like to take the lead on making name check to the forefront and address it in every possible manner? IV needs sincere people like you who can spend time to do each task. We have very good ideas on how to approach this issue and find a solution to this issue. If you could please take the lead on this issue, know that name check is top priority of IV. I would request you to please call us at anytime convenient for you and express that you would like to work on this issue. We need people who are ready to take ownership of issues and are ready to deliver. Would you like to join this effort actively?
Just so that everybody know, Immigration Voice could include 'World Peace' as one of the agenda items. But just including something as Goal doesn't mean that it can be achieved. To achieve anything that is listed as goals or to meaningfully add anything to the goals we need more serious people and more resources. If you are interested to actively contribute, please call us and we will connect you to the larger group of people to team-up the work for this issue. It is ok if you are not able to participate actively. It would help if you could please encourage others to take up the responsibility. Just because people are not agreeing with you, posting negative or discouraging messages will not help anybody.
America is a great nation. That is why we want to stay here and want our GC sooner. JFK once said that 'Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country'. One of the reasons why America is Great is because of the people of this great nation delivered what JFK said. We all could learn from this and before making any claim to being part of the American fabric or before claiming to be from "educated" class, maybe we need to stop behaving in way that only sends out the message 'what's in it for me'.
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Jaime
09-28 06:11 PM
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070926/eu_immigration.html?.v=1
more...
greencard_fever
09-05 02:43 PM
[QUOTE=imv116]
Nothing wrong, but just the fact that hiring becomes difficult and and people with genuine experience will also have to go through stringent hiring procedures. Say someone really has 8 years experience and someone is faking 8 years experience, both are competing for the same job and as a hiring manager, if the job is filled with someone with fake exp and this person does not perform, it will have a rippling effect. I have seen this happen.
chandu,its not same all the time as i believe in the candidate potential then the experience..i have seen so many case in my past 5 yrs of experience that a Guy who has 8yrs of experience failed to impress the hiring manager and technical lead in an personal interview where as a fresh graduate from well know university cracked the same interview a got the project� IT is the place where we all have to learn new thing every day...experience only matters how the a person approaching to get the things done...it all depends on how each individual is capable of job get done..this is what i belive in...no offence to any one.
Nothing wrong, but just the fact that hiring becomes difficult and and people with genuine experience will also have to go through stringent hiring procedures. Say someone really has 8 years experience and someone is faking 8 years experience, both are competing for the same job and as a hiring manager, if the job is filled with someone with fake exp and this person does not perform, it will have a rippling effect. I have seen this happen.
chandu,its not same all the time as i believe in the candidate potential then the experience..i have seen so many case in my past 5 yrs of experience that a Guy who has 8yrs of experience failed to impress the hiring manager and technical lead in an personal interview where as a fresh graduate from well know university cracked the same interview a got the project� IT is the place where we all have to learn new thing every day...experience only matters how the a person approaching to get the things done...it all depends on how each individual is capable of job get done..this is what i belive in...no offence to any one.
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gvenkat
10-21 12:38 PM
/* Last 8 years, Republicans have done nothing to improve GC system. Lets give democrats a chance this time. */
Do you have a voting right? Look whoever comes will not care abt EB3 India... for some time. The system has to fix itself or needs to be changed. If ppl with priority date of 2003 gets the GC around 2010. We should thank our stars and be happy.:)
Do you have a voting right? Look whoever comes will not care abt EB3 India... for some time. The system has to fix itself or needs to be changed. If ppl with priority date of 2003 gets the GC around 2010. We should thank our stars and be happy.:)
more...
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willwin
03-19 01:36 PM
Question on AOS processing based on PD/RD - Currently, EB2 INDIA is Dec 03. Assuming May 08 VB goes to Jan 03 (EB2 INDIA) , will the EB2 INDIA AOS applications with Feb - Dec 03 PDs still get processed??
Any chance of EB2 India moving forward to April 05 by October 2008??
Not only EB2, EB3 India also will move to April 2005, atleast for couple of months before this FY ends, to use the 140K numbers.
Any chance of EB2 India moving forward to April 05 by October 2008??
Not only EB2, EB3 India also will move to April 2005, atleast for couple of months before this FY ends, to use the 140K numbers.
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perm2gc
12-29 02:42 PM
It good to see some activity on the thread..Please carry on the advertising..we are near to our goal ..
Thks for all who have spent their valuable time on posting about IV.
Thks for all who have spent their valuable time on posting about IV.
more...
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uma001
10-05 07:25 PM
Add Amerigroup Corporation to the list
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chanduv23
11-14 10:13 AM
Totally agree, very nicely put. They will hear - listen if we present ideas that are pertinent to the existing situation. Nothing more pertinent than the housing mess. No one cares about old jaded ideas like "high talent" etc.
Can people in California approach Zoe Lofergens office with the idea?
On my part I will start sending letters and emails to the law makers.
Some one in the core has to take the lead and give some direction to this effort......
Do not regret if six months from now the housing crisis has cooled a little, no one will listen to us then. We would have wasted another chance. Do not take it for granted that now Obama is in office, he will do smoething about our problems.
Why do u limit urself to just sending letters. Whhy can't you approach Zoe's office, why can't you take the lead?
Can people in California approach Zoe Lofergens office with the idea?
On my part I will start sending letters and emails to the law makers.
Some one in the core has to take the lead and give some direction to this effort......
Do not regret if six months from now the housing crisis has cooled a little, no one will listen to us then. We would have wasted another chance. Do not take it for granted that now Obama is in office, he will do smoething about our problems.
Why do u limit urself to just sending letters. Whhy can't you approach Zoe's office, why can't you take the lead?
more...
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a_yaja
01-31 02:24 PM
I believe it is also illegal to work before getting a social security number. When you are on H4 you dont have a social security number (you have an itin which is not good enough for working). You will not get a social security number unless you have work authorization (i797). H1 will start only after october 1, so you can apply for social security number only after October 1 (i.e if you have i 797), it will take you about 4 to 7 weeks to get ssn. You can work only after getting the ssn. Somebody correct me if i wrong here.
You can work without SSN provided you are authorized to work (H1, EAD, etc) and you have applied for SSN number. The usual practice is to pay for the first two pay cycles, and if you have not received your SSN by then, then the employer will withold wages till SSN arrives. I know this because when I came to the US as a student, I received my first paycheck without SSN. By the second paycheck (I was paid monthly), I had my SSN and so no issues. My roommate, on the other hand did not receive his SSN for nearly 3 1/2 months - the University paid his first two paychecks but did not handout his third. They told him that they would wait till he showed his SSN card to them. After he received his SSN card, they released his paycheck.
Bottom line is, you can work even without SSN card - and if you don't receive your card on time, at most the employer can withold pay until you show them your SSN card. But the employer has to pay you for any work done in legal status and they cannot refuse pay for the period during which your application was pending with SSA.
You can work without SSN provided you are authorized to work (H1, EAD, etc) and you have applied for SSN number. The usual practice is to pay for the first two pay cycles, and if you have not received your SSN by then, then the employer will withold wages till SSN arrives. I know this because when I came to the US as a student, I received my first paycheck without SSN. By the second paycheck (I was paid monthly), I had my SSN and so no issues. My roommate, on the other hand did not receive his SSN for nearly 3 1/2 months - the University paid his first two paychecks but did not handout his third. They told him that they would wait till he showed his SSN card to them. After he received his SSN card, they released his paycheck.
Bottom line is, you can work even without SSN card - and if you don't receive your card on time, at most the employer can withold pay until you show them your SSN card. But the employer has to pay you for any work done in legal status and they cannot refuse pay for the period during which your application was pending with SSA.
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zuhail
03-11 09:23 PM
I have emailed the IV administrators seeking the opinion of the IV team and
about prioritizing the recapturing of visa numbers on the IV agenda.
May be I would be able to speak with one of the IV administrators about this issue soon.
about prioritizing the recapturing of visa numbers on the IV agenda.
May be I would be able to speak with one of the IV administrators about this issue soon.
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coolmanasip
03-10 01:05 PM
Change of employer does not imply your use of the AC21.....the rule does not require you to notify USCIS....so in many cases, if you do not notify them, it is likely that they will never know and approve your GC. But, if they issue an RFE and if your sponsoring employer gives you the offer for future job you should be okay..........you may only have to work for them for at least a little bit after you got your GC....
praveenat11
09-26 01:28 PM
Thanks immigal for ur help
retrohatao
02-13 12:25 PM
I think I am bit surprised to see not even a single posting as a reply. Believe it or not its huge problem than you can even imagine.
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
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